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hello hello my name is Mike butcher I’m
editor at large TechCrunch based out of
London and a plain Pavel Durov you
created telegram after the creating V
contact to the effectively the Facebook
of Russia but now you’ve gone on to
create telegram which is to some extent
reminds merely of whatsapp really and
yet not the same scale you’ve got about
60 over 60 million users what are you
sending about five billion messages a
day
actually we’re announced ten last month
10 billion messages delivered daily yeah
it’s right now it’s I checked earlier
today it’s over 12 12 billion messages
delivered daily amazing
so that’s breaking news as of today yeah
12 billion messages a day from telegram
but you know I think a lot of people
would like to ask you what is the point
of telegram when in a world where there
is so many other messaging platforms
it’s a good question but you know to put
it simply it doesn’t matter how many
other messaging apps are out there if
all of them suck right so which ones
suck for you for me and for most of my
team
whatsapp suck most we actually started
as a whatsapp sucks absolutely and I can
I can elaborate on that plays day sure
well look we’re living in 2015 we’re
supposed to have flying cars and
everything right now jetpacks absolutely
but if you have whatsapp on your phone
and your battery’s low and your phone
goes dead suddenly you can’t get access
to your messages it’s over it’s not
gross device it doesn’t have seen
cross-device ink it’s you can’t send
documents of big media there are lots of
limitations within group chats in your
communication and it’s it’s not private
so
I’m not sure I was a big fan of whatsapp
about three or two years ago and I’m not
sure I am now you said you mentioned
privacy now you’ve made a big claim
about telegram being having the ability
to be end-to-end encrypted sure I mean
that’s obviously a laudable claim
especially we’re living in a kind of
post Snowden world but what does it do
for the business instead in a sense what
is it where’s the business proposition
in encryption well look I had a friend
back then when I was living in Russia I
had a friend and she told me that she
was presented with it with the printout
of her whatsapp messages in the police
department so they basically intercepted
and decrypted her messages and she told
me they tried to use it that to
blackmail her so privacy is not
something that is relevant only to
business users but business is most
affected because they could be
blackmailed which people could be
blackmailed and their their information
is more valuable it could be compromised
so in other words you’re saying you’re
retaining users because they trust you
because the messages can’t be
intercepted that’s what just one of the
things that makes telegram different
there are there are many more and you
you’re gradually rolling out a bot
platform it you want to describe that to
us and why why that might actually end
up becoming a significant part of what
telegram is yeah we watch the blog bot
platform I think this is the third party
developers yeah yeah June this year so
any third party developer using very
simple API scan create a bot a suit a
user that you could communicate with on
telegram but on the other and the
communication there is the machine that
is dealing with all the messages on on
that side and actually a lot of services
have appeared using that paradigm of
communication dating education
productivity lots of
stuff and I learned only yesterday that
one of the most successful bought bots
of the platform got an acquisition
attempt eight digit acquisition at them
it’s only like three months old already
eight digital position at time so you’re
saying that wasn’t someone to require
one of the Box yes the company that
created this box so in other words so
you’re saying that there we startups
launched on telegrams platform that
might actually end up being quad in
their own right
that’s true that that’s what what has
been happening and and I think the news
will break out later this fall so in
certain sense the bot platform is almost
like apps for the telegram that’s true
and you think that eventually
third-party developers may actually make
money out there in this way absolutely
so we are thinking about launching a
payment API so that all the bots
developers third-party developers could
accept money easily from their users in
telegram and yeah is it something you
also might extend in terms of
advertising and advertising that the the
bots themselves might become marketing
channels for for brands that’s already
happening actually it’s some of the
boats are being used for sending ads
unfortunately I’m not a big fan of ads
but these are third-party BOTS and users
opt opted in receiving messages from
these bots so it’s already happening I
hear there’s there’s a bot at third
party both agency ad agency dealing with
this really so that might become a real
sort of an ecosystem effectively that
you’re developing absolutely that’s
really early-stage it’s only three
months old but what we’re seeing we’re
very happy about it one of the things
though is that you’ve clearly made some
compromises on the platform because for
instance there’s been reports that
you’ve you’ve met with Iranian
government to allow the fact that you’ve
shutting down some porn box for instance
on telegram inside around is that can
you confirm that for us or not well I
can confirm the for the first part but I
do confirm that we do blog porn bots in
markets where porn is prohibited because
what happens in that environment is that
porn websites which are blocked started
to reappear in form of bots on telegram
platform and as a result which is
happening in Iran this was happening in
Iran Iraq Saudi Arabia some countries
like that and what we saw is that as a
result we got a lot of users we didn’t
want to and we have big poor we need
we’re not big fans of porn we don’t want
telegram to be perceived as a source of
porn and so we do block this kind of
stuff so that in the sense that you you
make a big play about being having being
a libertarian and have freedom of speech
and yeah and then the other side you’re
you’re cutting off access to some at
some level is there any any sort of
secret behind the scenes negotiations
with some of these governments no so we
we do it purely for business with
decisions we don’t want to in some
markets we don’t want to be perceived as
something that has to do with the book
with porn and this is actually the same
reasoning behind Apple’s decision to
block foreign content on App Store or
instagrams decision to block porn or
Facebook or YouTube or Google you can
you can go on and we think this is the
right thing to do but if we speak about
privacy and freedom of speech we have
very adamant principles about it through
over two years of our existence we
haven’t disclosed a single byte of data
to third parties including governments
and it was not easy
and as for freedom of speech like I said
if there’s a but that has to do with
criticizing governments or with some
opposition activity we would never block
such such a part even if obviously
famously created the contact in Russia
which was gonna let the type Facebook of
Russia
but you were controversially effectively
told to get out of of that by forces
aligned with with the government is that
that’s the case right
that’s roughly true roughly true
yes which part is true and which isn’t
well mostly in the sense that there’s a
it’s true and it’s rough but yeah we
found ourselves I mean there was some
incredible stories around that time
wasn’t there that you were that you were
effectively framed for a car accident
that you were under political pressure
but that’s not nothing out of the
ordinary in Russia believe me it’s if
you if you get get to the country leave
there sometimes you get used to it it
happens with other business manage its
I’m not no different from from the rest
of them and these now you’ve now become
a resident of some kits you you roam the
world
dressed in black you live a nomadic
digital lifestyle how do you manage how
are you going to manage to continue to
run a company in this way moving around
the planet trying to evade authorities
do you feel do you feel like you’re a
target and not so much no although
sometimes I feel excessive attention for
example here in the United States when I
go and go out of the country but well
it’s a good question because right now
we’re a very small team we can afford to
rent houses short term all over the
world we spend this summer in Finland it
was great spring in Paris just rented a
house in Finland yeah and got your team
together and built carried on building
telegram that was great
absolutely great well of course some of
the guys they they stay at the home we
outsource some of the design and
customer support to Eastern Europe and
southern Europe but other than that
we’re a small team of 15 and we like to
travel and we
want to use this opportunity to see more
you you haven’t raised money for
telegram heavy knock you took reportedly
300 million dollars from the sale from
your sale of your share in the contactor
is that correct I can’t confirm the
exact number but I was very lucky to
higher than 300 million dollars or lower
I would say this I was very lucky to get
out at the point before the market
crashed it was just before the Ukranian
events broke out and it was extremely
fortunate that would have affected the
value of the contact yeah because I do
it before that and then after these
events broke out and the local currency
went down and right now the value of the
company I sold is probably like three or
four times lower than that it used to be
so Facebook eventually will just take
over in Russia I’m not sure about
Facebook I’m not a big believer in
Facebook Vkontakte still leads in Russia
with with a huge margin but they are
struggling to remain relevant because
these mobile apps started to attract
users I mean Instagram whatsapp fiber
snapchat apps like that do you think
it’s ever likely it would take outside
investment for telegram I mean you live
this on a nomadic lifestyle any board
meeting you have had with an outside
investor might you know might be a
shambles because you can’t you’re like
you move around the planet all the time
no we really like to be independent at
this point we think there’s more than
market shares and revenue streams we we
like the opportunity to I mean do you
have do you have enough money to last
for a while yeah definitely and you can
just continue to build out the platform
as you see it
yeah we’ll continue to do what we think
is right um what about I mean do you
think in a way is this sort of your
revenge on Putin the secure messaging
I’m not sure I mean I’m not focused on
revenge too much
it’s ironic that a lot of people
including high-profile people in Russia
use telegram and I’m happy about that
but Russia is like number seven market
for us in terms of its size within the
telegram ecosystem and it’s not
particularly important for us whether
for example we’re big in Russia or we’re
small in Russia were blocked in Russia
because we’ve already been there
we’ve already and made a company which
owned Russian market and that’s not a
new challenge you have to go back to
Russia can you get can you go back to
Russia I can
I wasn’t rush of this spring for my
mom’s birthday and well I can go in and
out of the country nobody seems to care
these days because obviously they have
other things to be worried about but so
you’re not so high-profile that I know
not anymore because i salted the the
largest social network in russia they
shouldn’t be worried about me at this
point but i try to spend as few time as
i can as little time as I can in Russia
just because I want to see other places
you like to travel does it concern you
that Isis is using telegram little does
that concern you
that’s a good question do you sleep well
at night 9 terrorists use your platform
you know that’s a very good question but
I think that privacy ultimately and our
rightful privacy is more important than
our fear of bad things happening like
terrorism and if you look at Isis yes
there’s a war going on in the Middle
East it’s it’s a series of tragic events
but ultimately the ISIS will always find
a way to communicate within themselves
and if any means of communication turns
out to be not secure for them they will
switch to another one and so I don’t
think we are actually taking part in
this activities I don’t think we should
be guilty or feel guilty about it I
still think we’re doing the right with
the right thing protecting our users
privacy you think that if they weren’t
using telegram they’ll be using
something else absolutely and if even
with that there’s open-source apps that
you could build the using enter an
encryption you could install them and
you know it’s all available so the
technology is already there and it’s up
to us how we should how we would use it
I’m kick the messaging platform kick has
raised fifty million dollars from from
ten cents in order to build out more of
an Asian style of messaging platform
where you can order a car or you can
purchase goods you can you know order
pizza on on ten cents or something like
that is that that kind of where you want
to go with telegram that it becomes not
a messaging platform not just for
messaging but also for other services as
well yes and no because in order to go
this Eastern model you have to really
have high penetration into a market you
have to be socially
relevant for everybody and it’s not
always the case with apps like telegram
or Kuechly dimension because although we
are pretty big in some of the markets
and I think we’re number one in a couple
of them we don’t have the dominance that
we chad has in china or line in japan or
cacao in korea and so yes we’ll we’ll
experiment with the payment system with
bars and third-party applications built
on top of telegram but we don’t see
ourselves as necessarily as going that
way in the near future isn’t there the
danger that you kind of become an
also-ran that you that company that sure
it’s useful people can you know use it
for messaging but there’s not very much
more to it than that
you know the interesting thing that we
noticed is that people who installed
telegram in massive numbers last year
and this year and Seoul just as a backup
application started to use telegram as
the primary messaging application and
that’s why we see this huge increase in
in user activity we used to have 1
billion messages delivered daily in
February now we’re over 12 and that’s an
indicator that people really love
telegram and switch more and more of
their activities there and more often
than not they start their day from their
messaging app and if their messaging app
turns out to be telegram they will start
at it from telegram and I think that we
should be really happy about this
messaging is probably the biggest thing
going on in social media in this decade
and we’re definitely in the right place
and time diverts it over 60 million
users when you know what are the next
big points that you want to get to 100
million when will you bid 100 million oh
we are gradually getting there but you
know something that is a bit
discouraging about getting 60 or 100
million active users is that you always
get compared in the media we
with the older messaging apps there any
media covering telegram stats would say
look okay they have 60 70 100 million
but this is still a far cry compared to
what saps eight or nine hundred million
and they don’t take into account that we
were actually two years old and whatsapp
is also six over six years old if you
start comparing telegram with other
companies that appeared two years ago
these are pretty huge numbers right so
we’re not big fans of announcing numbers
at this point well we look will look
with interest on your next next moment
of announcements and thank you very much
Pavel Durov thank you Mikey
yes
all righty